Copy and Conversion #1

Making it Rain With Ecommerce Email
with Chris Orzechowski

Chris Orzechowski is a sought-after copywriter, email marketer, author, and coach. In this episode Chris shares his take on storytelling in marketing, email automation, and the direction of ecommerce in a post-Covid world.

“My philosophy for my entire copywriting career is, try everything and chisel away the stuff that you don’t like. After a while you’ll start to realize some projects gave you energy and some projects sap your energy.”Chris Orzechowski

In the Podcast:

  • How Chris builds email marketing systems to grow, scale, and generate cash flow
  • What makes copy for physical products unique
  • Chris’ philosophy when it come to copywriting projects
  • The impact of Covid-19 on ecommerce
  • The ’80/20′ sequences to focus on for automations
  • Why storytelling is such a powerful tool for email marketing
  • How to use emotion to make your emails extra persuasive 
  • Non-standard strategies to get ahead in ecommerce
  • Some companies doing email marketing the right way in 2020
  • Details on Chris’ monthly newsletter

Links and Resources:

Full Transcript:

Brad: Hey you guys, Brad here. Today we are going to be talking about email marketing for ecommerce businesses. And for that reason I have Mr. Chris or the koski. Here he is an expert in that field. Chris is a copywriter, email marketer, coach and online entrepreneur, online entrepreneur, so I’m excited to talk with him today. Welcome, Chris.

Chris Orzechowski: Thanks so much for having me, Brad:. pumped to be here.

Brad: Chris, I know you recently had some big news. You had an addition to the family.

Chris Orzechowski: Yes. Yeah. Blake, baby Blake. He was born March 31 at 12:22am. So uh, you know, been a couple to three weeks since then. And happy to have him home and having quarantine with us. 

Brad: Cool, I’m gonna go ahead and jump on into some of these questions. Chris, I gave you a little bit of an intro, but can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Chris Orzechowski:  Yeah, so I am an ecommerce email strategist and copywriter I work mainly obviously with ecommerce brands, mostly direct to consumer brands. I do have a, you know, history of also working with some digital publishers, you know, of course creators, coaches, authors as well. You know, kind of been a little bit all over the place in my career. But in the last few years, I’ve never really settled in on ecommerce. And what to do with those clients and those companies is basically build email marketing systems for them, that can basically run around the clock sell while they sleep and increase their average order value, increase their lifetime value, increase the amount of purchases, they get, the amount of conversions they get, and just help them you know, generate more cash flow so they can grow and scale a lot faster.

Brad:  Awesome. Chris like you mentioned you have a diverse experience in copywriting. You’ve worked on it with Jeff Walker, you’ve worked with info publishers, course publishers a lot in the past and now you’re very focused on ecommerce. How did you make that decision to kind of niche down specifically on email for ecommerce?

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, so um you know, what my philosophy has been for like most of my copywriting career has been like try everything and then chisel away the stuff that you don’t like and or not that you don’t like but just you know, after a while, you start to realize that some projects kind of give you energy and some projects, SAP you of energy and after a while, you know, I did for probably four years straight just launches like big large scale launches every single month, you know, sometimes two or three in a month. And after a couple years of that I was just like, tired, very exhausted. And whenever I had, you know, in between all those, I’d always been working with ecommerce. As well, whenever I’ve been doing those projects, they usually always worked. That worked well, they sold a lot. They were much lower stress. And they’re fun. So I was like, why don’t I just do these and that’s pretty much it.

So I kind of made that pivot. And you know something, too, about the tangibility of the physical product that’s nice to write for, you know, it’s a little bit less abstract. Like sometimes when you’re like, super, you know, deep in selling courses, new webinars, launches, and videos and all these things. It’s like, you almost lose a little bit of like, you know, touch with the physical world, right? Like, it’s almost too abstract sometimes because you have to think about the stories and like, super deep into it. I’m not saying we don’t use that in ecommerce as well. But with a physical product, something cool that you could hold in your hands and you can, you know, see visually, you know, how it’s being used in someone’s life.

So for me as a writer, you know, after I just there were some types of markets that I’d worked in and just some types of campaigns that, you know, soon I reached the point where I said, I think you’ve said all I can say, in the world of personal development, I think I’ve said, All I can say, you know, in the world of, of, you know, doing marketing, selling marketing courses, you know, you just reach that point where you’re like, I’ve said it all I’ve written, you know, 3000 pages of copy. I don’t know if I have any other ideas left, that kind of left it all out there. But with ecommerce, it’s fun, because there’s just so many cool products and cool brands that have their own unique personalities, which are a lot of fun to write for.

Brad:  Yeah, very cool. Very cool. Okay, so Chris, tell me about your philosophy. When it comes to ecommerce, email marketing. I know you, you have a specific kind of approach and a weight specific way that you view things?

Chris Orzechowski: Yep. So I guess the simplest way to sum it up would be it’s kind of aligns with Kevin Kelly’s thousand true fans and you are kind of like the leader who is going to help You know your people, the people on your list doesn’t matter what you’re selling, you know, this is a common idea and like digital courses and and the info product world but in ecommerce, I think it’s even more important like you want to help the people on your list get certain outcomes in their lives, and your physical products are going to be the vehicles that help them make that happen. So instead of you know running constant flash sales and promotions and like, you know, you don’t want to be those people who’re just running the same 20% off sale week after week after week, because after a while, people just tune that stuff out. 

Like, I believe in making your emails themselves valuable and focusing on outcomes for the outcomes that your prospects and customers want. And then demonstrating with your copy and telling stories and building that bond through email. That’s going to be a much more long term effective strategy. It’s going to increase retention and loyalty, which is super important for ecommerce as well. That’s kind of the name of the game. And it’s a lot more fun, some more fun for people who are reading your emails, still enjoy them more. So you know, I know Just have never been, you know, I know some of you know, flash sales definitely work, right? Like you’ll make money. Some people will buy something every single day if you have a big enough list. But I think that’s a good way to burn out your list. And I think the way to have longevity and to continue to grow and scale and get more leverage is by having awesome copy and kind of taking people on that journey with you through your emails.

Brad: Awesome. Cool. So Chris, when you’re working with these ecommerce companies, what kinds of things are you consulting on? Obviously, you’re doing copy, you’re doing strategy, but are you helping out with things like segmentation? deliverability testing, maybe some of those more technical aspects of email marketing?

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, all that stuff all the above. And, you know, again, it kind of depends client to client, right? Like, not every client every single problem solved. Some of them have, you know, have those problems solved already. You know, starting a client the day who needs help setting up some segments and that will kind of be one of the first things we do before then we bought automations and I’m like, why? All that stuff is kind of set in place, obviously monitoring, split tests and tweak and optimize as you go on. But then once you have that, then you can do a lot of cool things like broadcast campaigns and layer those things on top of the automation. So it definitely depends but you know, it’s all part of the email marketing puzzle and making it all work correctly.

Brad: Yeah, that’s what makes it fun, right? Yeah. aspects to it. Mm hmm. So Chris, how is writing copy for econ business unique? What makes it different from say writing for an online training business or a SaaS business?

Chris Orzechowski: So I think with Econ, there’s a lot of ways to demonstrate your products with words, rather than just using you know, just here’s a picture of the product right because that’s what a lot of people do. I think with you know, some of the you know, SAS or digital products. The way that you mainly demonstrate is just telling stories about people who have used the product, which is a great practice, and you can actually of econ. But I think there’s some more clever ways to demonstrate with, with physical products as well, in terms of shifting people’s beliefs in terms of telling the creation stories, how these products are made, or how they’re used or where the ingredients are sourced from those kinds of things. So, you know, obviously, it’s all storytelling, but I think you have a lot of opportunities to not only demonstrate, but also to dimensionalize the benefits and explain all the different ways that these products can be used. And, you know, just just share that in the copy with the, you know, campaigns that you’re writing.

Brad: Yeah. Okay. Chris, you mentioned storytelling, and I know you’ve been a big advocate, advocate storytelling and email and copy for a long time. What are some of the ways in ecommerce business can incorporate storytelling into their message messaging, particularly if they’re selling kind of simple, maybe lower cost products like a T shirt or like packaged food items, they don’t have Have all that sort of emotion around it, like, say a high ticket training course does?

Chris Orzechowski: Mm hmm. Well, I mean, the easiest way is someone’s always going to use this product. And then like what happens to them in their life after they use the product? Like, think about who they become, you can think about what they’re able to now do you think about even if it’s a T shirt, and it’s like a funny t shirt? Or if it’s like, you know, there’s that company, tipsy elves, which has like the ugly Christmas sweaters? Like, what are the stories to tell there? Well, you know, it’s always the story of like, being that guy or girl who walks in and like wins the ugly sweater party, right? Like maybe that’s just one example, might not be the best example in the world. But like, there’s always an example of how someone is using the product. And then what happened as a result of that. So, you know, even if it’s something boring, like someone’s buying this product to solve a problem in their life, and then they’re going to expect a certain outcome from using that product.

So just you know, a lot of people say, Oh, well, yeah, like I have a generic product. I’ve been one product, but like, why was the motivation like what is the problem? What’s the pain? And then what are the trends? To move towards. So those are the things I always try to think about as much as possible. Especially when it comes to ecommerce.

Brad: Awesome. Yeah, it’s so true no matter what the product is, there’s always a pain or problem that somebody is looking to solve by buying that product, whether it’s $5 or $500. There’s always a story.

Chris Orzechowski: You know, for instance, like, years ago, I worked on this campaign for this watch company flip already and one of the emails I wrote for the launch was can your appearance affect your salary. And we actually cited this article from Neil Patel. And he, I guess he did this experiment where he spent like, you know, $100,000 on like clothes or something and his appearance and it translated to like a $600,000 increase in this business. I don’t remember the specifics, but there’s something along those lines. Yeah, so we like cited that in the copy to sell the watch instead of saying Look how cool to watch it is here’s a button go buy it. We were like, Hey, you know, if you upgrade your appearance, you might feel better. You might, you know, start carrying yourself more confidence. You might speak up More meetings you might, whatever, whatever.

One of the easiest ways to upgrade your parents is by getting a nice watch. Like, that’s an easy way for you to start and right now we have this promotion going on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here’s the link. And that email did very well. So, you know, there’s always clever ways to kind of weave you know, different kinds of stories and those examples into the copy.

Brad: Yeah, definitely. Chris, how do you approach lifecycle automations automations lifecycle emails are big and ecommerce. They’re a big part of driving revenue there. So in your opinion, what’s kind of the 8020 automated sequences like which ones should an ecommerce business focus on creating first?

Chris Orzechowski: That’s it cart abandonment, probably the biggest one that’s like, easily the lowest hanging fruit. You know, it just kills me. You know, a piece of my soul dies every time I see you know, these huge companies, they don’t have a cart abandonment in place is just such easy money. And I’ve met some companies that have been around for years like ecommerce companies and they just have not had that and I’m like what? Like why it’s three miles. That’s right in our but, but whatever. So that’s like the easiest money and then there’s obviously browse amendments probably next and then you probably have a wingback and a VIP and those are the core four.

If you get those in place, there’s many others that you could do. There’s probably 10,15,20 others depending on what you sell and the way your funnels work and the way you know if it’s consumable, or non consumable. There’s so many different things you could do. But if you can get those four in place, you know, that is definitely a super solid 8020 for your business.

Brad: Cool. Yeah, talking about businesses, even big businesses that don’t have things like cart abandonment, other simple low hanging fruit automations in place. I worked at Golden Hippo media, I think you know that they’re almost like a billion dollar company with a bunch of different direct consumer econ brands. And when I was there, they didn’t have cart abandonment. They didn’t have Any kind of browse abandonment in any of those, like basic automations. And I just can’t imagine how many millions of dollars was just kind of overlooked every year by not having those simple things in place. So even like some of the big businesses out there, don’t have these kinds of automations. So,

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, and it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s, you know, I understand why it happens because as a business owner, or like, as a marketer, there’s always a million fires out, put out as many things got to do. But that’s why like, I guess people like me exist, though, you know, you can hire someone and say, Hey, you continue to put out the fires and are worried about all that stuff, like, you know, install this stuff real quick. We’ll do a one time it’ll run for you in the background. Because that’s oftentimes what I’ve always found that what happens with business owners like they’re busy, and it’s just like, you know, yeah, we’ll get around to it eventually. Like the one client I was telling you before, you know that there were like a $60 million, your business and they’ve been in business for five years and they didn’t have cart abandonment.

And they were like, finally, you’re here with work on this, I’m like, Oh my god, you should have called me years ago. Like, we could have really done some magic but I mean, that’s that’s just what happens. But then the end that’s also why some companies continue to grow and continue to have more of that margin and others don’t, right? Because, you know, some companies will succeed in spite of that stuff and some companies will succeed in spite of it until they don’t. So

Brad: Yeah, yeah. And then there’s so much of the tech side with the integration with the email and the ecommerce platform. So I think that’s that’s probably part of it, as well as just kind of the complexity of the tech side for a lot of businesses.

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, I mean, the good news is there’s so many solutions now like you know, like klaviyo or even like drip like there’s a lot of software’s I think Shopify like a couple days ago just wants their own email software. I don’t know much about race heard. I just heard like I said, I don’t know any features, details, but I just heard that it came out. So and there. They got, you know how many millions of customers they’ll be pretty big. But it is getting the good news is it is getting easier and easier. So like this, I think 10 years ago Especially something very hard, but like now the barrier to entry is just getting lower, like each and every year, which is nice.

Brad: So Chris, are there any non standard automations that you have built out for ecommerce clients that did really well?

Chris Orzechowski: Non standard automations? Um, not sure, um, probably, or even, like,

Brad: Non standard strategies, because they’re sort of like, you know, with clayvo say there’s set automations already built in. So looking beyond like, you know, the standard ones that they supply. So

Chris Orzechowski: So yeah, so, as I said, the biggest non stem strategy that I push, you know, my clients and the people that I work with, to use are super plain text emails. And yeah, and that’s such like a, you know, in the course space that’s like, Oh, yeah, plain text. That’s what you do in email. You know, 90% of people know that but in the comments, such a new idea, which is very interesting, because, you know, and I get it because There’s a lot of physical products, like if you have the tangibility, you can take the pictures, you can show those things. But what I’ve always found is like, you know, it’s a Howard Gossage quote, who’s like my favorite, you know, or like, vintage admin. He said, “People don’t read ads, they read what’s interesting to them, sometimes it’s an ad and like, I just Yeah, really resonate with that little piece of his philosophy.

Well, most of the piece of his philosophy, but that one in particular, because with email, like what I’ve always found is there’s some people who are deleted on this some people who are unbelievable, and, you know, I your inbox is probably the same way like for me, like I’ll, you know, I’ll get 100 emails a day, but there’s 15 or 20 that I’ll, I’ll read them and then I’ll save them they won’t get deleted because not that I’ll come back to them. I might want to search or I might want to like, Oh, it’s that person’s just something a month ago is interesting. Want to come back to that. Or maybe you batch them, you read them all at once, right? But there’s those kinds of emails most of the emails are like, yeah, this is an ad. I know I can delete this right off the bat.

Yeah, like, how do you like which camp Do you want your emails to be in? And it’s kind of binary it’s going to be one or the other. Right? There’s people you’re gonna know. Oh, yeah, there’s this promo and I don’t want to be sold today. Delete? Or this is interesting. I’m gonna read this, I’m gonna come back to it.

Brad: Yeah. And if they’re good enough, say the emails like somebody you like you send out or maybe Laura Belgray, you know, there’s gonna be a pitch and yet you still want to read because the email is so damn good.

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah. And that just goes back to like the outcomes over products right? Because if you just take a picture of your product, and then tell someone to buy it, you’re focusing on the product if you focus on the outcome, which is when you’re using like Laura does, or like I do, or like a lot of good you know brands do when they take you on the journey and they tell the stories or they update you with what’s going on with the company and like they use that plain text and they use that space instead of burying with a hero image or something right when they bring you along with them on that journey. Yeah, it doesn’t matter. You could swap out products; it’s not about the product that points about you and the relationship and where you’re trying to help them get to.

Brad: Chris, do you ever get resistance or pushback when talking to clients who are interested in working with you because they know your track record, but then maybe they’re used to that kind of image heavy, simple, super short emails that are focused on images. Do you ever get resistance from clients when you first start working with them to change over that sort of text based story based format?

Chris Orzechowski: I don’t, but I’m also very good at filtering and client selection. So that’s probably why you know, I’m not saying that people don’t get resistance, but you know, if that’s someone’s belief system, and they’re gonna fight me on that tooth and nail then I’m just not gonna work with them. And you know, it’s nothing no, no, no bad blood, but it’s just like, if that’s what you want to do. It doesn’t do that work you like if you just want a hero image, like four words of copy and like a big flashing discount, like, that’s going to be someone else that’s not gonna be a job for Chris or his agency. And that’s just the way that I approach it. And, you know, I guess, you know, the answer I, I think the question that is on people’s minds when when you ask this question is like, well, what happens if I’m in that situation? Like, what do I say, right? 

And I think that the best way, if you are in that situation where you didn’t take on a client, and they’re fighting you a little bit, and they want super image heavy or super, you know, crazy design, and you want to kind of focus more on the copy approach to split tests, right? Because then, you know, definitively with the data. And numbers don’t lie and people still might, you know, be stuck in their ways because, you know, sometimes people need things to be their ideas if they’re going to see them through. But that I’ve seen, I’ve had copywriters that I’ve coached, who have done that and say, Hey, well, why don’t we just test it out and see, you know, see what the numbers look like. They win by a huge margin. I had one, one cop who hired me to consult him on email sequences and was kind of funny because he wanted to go all plain text and do the storytelling and the company like never done that before. 

And everyone in the company was like, Oh, you know, let the kid do it. It’s not gonna work anyway, and then make more sales in four days, and they’ve been for months. And their jaws

were like, on the floor, and I was like, that is frickin awesome. So sometimes it’s you just gotta, you just got to prove it. You know what I mean?

Brad: Yeah, yeah, totally. No, it makes sense. Do you think there’s a certain profile of the kind of ecommerce business that is more open to that kind of approach story based text based emails? Or is it just based on the kind of people who are running the business?

Chris Orzechowski: Ah, I think it’s probably the people you know, because what I’ve always found, especially with client selection is like the belief system has to be a match more so than anything else, like yeah, you want. You definitely want things Like list size and revenue numbers and types of products and skews and like you want all that stuff and that’s like the demographic stuff but like if the psychographics if like they don’t have the same beliefs as you. And this goes for whether you become email or whether you do webinars or whether you do YouTube video scripts or whatever, it doesn’t matter what it is right like, that has to be in alignment and beliefs and belief systems because otherwise, you know, that that’s where the best business partnerships and relationships take off when everyone is on the same page and firing on all cylinders.

Or even if you disagree over small things, you’re willing to work together and compromise on some of those, you know, bigger things in order to move forward and get a good result. So I really think more so than anything, it’s about aligning beliefs and you know, as a copywriter, ways to do that in terms of the way you market yourself and the content you put out and everything else. But that’s super important. Cool.

Brad:  Yeah. So by the time a prospect gets to you, they already know what you offer and their interest specifically in that approach? 

Chris Orzechowski: So, yeah, there’s probably not going to be much resistance,they’re gonna be like, already, they’re not coming to me for strategy helping them dictating strategy. And you know, that’s happened to me before. And I’ll end those calls early and say listen, like I’m gonna be honest with you like, here’s what I would do with your business if someone held a gun to my head, and I had to make it succeed. I know, that’s not that might not be what you want, but that’s my recommendation. And that’s the only thing I’m gonna be able to help you with. And sometimes, you know, you have to end a lot of times, obviously, if there’s that big of a gap between belief systems, then it doesn’t work and that’s fine. You move on to the next client, they move on and hopefully find someone who could help them execute their vision, but I think that’s like the most important thing, you know, for any freelance copywriter out there. It’s like, understanding like, what your beliefs are and what your system is and finding people who fit in that mold.

Brad: Yeah, hundred percent. All right. So this is something that’s on everybody’s mind all across the world. Coronavirus pandemic going on? Chris, what do you think the impact is going to be on ecommerce that’s it’s already happening from Coronavirus and what do you think the future is going to look like?

Chris Orzechowski: I think it’s nothing but bright skies and sunny days for ecommerce. People are gonna buy stuff. You know, I mean, like, you ain’t gonna go to the store and buy it unless it’s a grocery store. So like, Where are you gonna get your stuff from? You know, like, you gotta get somewhere. And, you know, yeah, companies like Amazon who were prioritizing, you know, non essential items, I guess they call it well, I don’t know the exact terminology but you know, you order something off prime and now it takes 10 to 14 days instead of the usual one or two. Yeah. So it’s like okay, well, where are people going to buy things? People are not going to stop buying things and like, you know, some look at you turn on the news. Everything looks scary, right? Because you sell 20 million people filed for unemployment or I don’t know, whatever the number Whereas I don’t know exactly, and that is definitely terrible.

I feel for all those people, it’s absolutely awful. But there’s 300, you know, 250 million how I don’t know, however many other, you know, working age people who still are getting jobs and still do have, you know, income coming in, or they have, you know, kids and they needed to entertain them, and they’re gonna need to spend money somehow. And, you know, I don’t want to sound callous, but like, that’s just objectively what the data kind of looks like, right? Like people are still spending money. I’ve been finding a lot of, you know, other smart people in the ecommerce world and people who are showing data and they’re like, yes, sales are up. We’ve had clients have their best weeks ever. A smack dab in the middle of quarantine. And I’m like, I think that makes sense. Because you’re stuck home can’t go anywhere. You’re bored. When people are bored. They buy things, and especially if you can’t go anywhere else, like you have to buy online.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, totally. I’m hearing the same thing, seeing the same things. Some of my clients have had, like their best promotions. Even within the past, like three weeks, for example, like a client who sells food items online, it’s like their business is just going up dramatically. So, yeah, like any situation, you know, for some people, it’s going to work out well, even in tough times like a pandemic.

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, I had a client, a sorry one, a fellow email copycat and coaching student. You know, he sent me an email or he posted in the group and was like, yeah, we sent out like, we did this, like two email campaigns or $120,000 worth of goods and like, they’re, they’re also like some kind of like, online grocery. So you know, like a very small average order value. It’s not like they’re selling, you know, 2000 mattresses or something, right. Like they, you know, some of their products are a couple bucks each. So like, they’re just been killing it. So that’s the thing. It’s like, I don’t know, obviously, every day is different and things could change on a day by day basis, but I think it’s just long term. I think it’s gonna be very good for Economy. I think a lot of people aren’t getting used to buying from these brands. And there’s going to be loyalties built and there’s going to be preferences, right? Because, for instance, right, like if, if I went to the store and bought razors, and now I can’t go to the store anymore, well, maybe I go to Dollar Shave Club, maybe we go to Harry’s, maybe we go to the store.

And then once I start using that brand, I’m going to switch next month and switch the month after probably not right, I’m going to probably continue to buy from that brand. So, that scenario is being played out in so many different markets and industries and with different types of products, hundreds of millions of times over right. So I think there’s gonna be some lasting effects from that happening.

Brad: Chris, who are some of the ecommerce businesses out there that are doing email the right way that are just sending out awesome emails, valuable emails that people should check out?

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah. So, the ones that come to the top of mind are some of the ones that are broken down to my email. The week blog series and you know, shyness T is one and they’re just the funniest people on earth I think like, they have the funniest that you won’t find a company with funnier, more engaging, I guess, email copy there. Those guys are funny shit. And then what do they do? What’s their business they sell is like apparel, I guess you could say, you know, underwear and they have like these, like, they send this email the other day, like, this Sunday, I was like, you want the tiger King because you know, type things like popular on Netflix right now. And then they came out. Yeah, like, you know, this whole line of like, Tiger speedos and like Tiger underwear and Tiger print, like, suits or whatever and like it just like, it’s not stuff like you’re gonna wear to, you know, to out or to work or whatever, but it’s like, the like onesies, hoods and like, it’s just like funny stuff. But they’re team writers. They’re just phenomenal. 

So I think they do a great job. And, you know, other companies, you know, Ryan Lee’s rewind, like he’s just, you know, the go email. So like You know even though I don’t I haven’t I’ve tried his bars I’m you know bought them a friend gave me one Abby Woodcock when we were doing our event tonight. She had like a box and I tried a couple they’re pretty good. I haven’t actually bought any from him yet, but I read every single one of his emails. I’m gonna try them so I know that they’re good. Yeah. I mean, you know, his phenomenal true Vani, also a person that hasn’t bought any of their products but you know, phenomenal email marketing game. I’m trying to think of who else You know, there’s basically the short answer is any company that I broke down on my blog. But those are some ones that just come. You know, top of mind that is doing a really good job. Cool.

Brad: Yeah, that series is an awesome resource for anybody who wants to check out like, in depth examples of good ecommerce emails. Definitely. Definitely a place to go to check it out. Thank you. Chris. You recently launched a monthly newsletter. Can you tell me What led you to start that newsletter and just what the newsletter is all about?

Chris Orzechowski: Yes. So um, I’ve been kicking around the idea of doing a newsletter for a while, you know, I had grown up in my marketing career reading Gary Halbert letters and reading Frank Kearns newsletter and Ben settles and doesn’t mind dance and my fury and it’s probably Dan Kennedy. There’s probably like one or two other people whose newsletters I’ve been subscribed to over the years. But I always remember Gary Halbert. One newsletter was like big for me, because why before I like ever had a client, I remember, I found the file of all every single newsletter, you know, 1100 pages, whatever it is, and I remember like going to FedEx kinkos, whatever, and spending like 80 bucks to get all printed and back and I put it in the binder. The binder is like this big, it’s huge.

And I remember like every night, you know, I’d work on my business and like, nothing would happen and it would suck but then every night I’d like to go and read an issue or two before bed and it was just cool. To see over the last 15 or 20 years or however long he wrote all those issues for the guy kind of like documented his life through marketing in the work that he did to suit me and I always said, like, one day I want to do that, right. And I want to be a long term project where I could document all the stuff because I’m always a big believer in like, you know, doing the work, and then documenting the winds and the processes and the failures and what I’ve learned, and it seemed like the perfect medium for me to do that was in a newsletter.

Um, and also, on top of that, you know, I’m, I just been through so many courses and I’ve had courses and like I’ve created, you know, my email copy Academy course, it’s got to be like, 40 hours of video at least. And I got to the point where I’m like, you know, it’s good, and people absolutely love it. And people’s lives have been changed by and this is not me saying this is what they told me. But at the same time, like I don’t want to dump another 40 hour course on someone’s plate, like, I want to give people something tangible, something that can hold in their hand, something they could read in a sitting almost like a An executive report where it’s like, here’s the one thing I need to do this month, and they do it and they get a great result. And that was where the idea kind of started. I said, “How can I build this?”

So it took, you know, took a long time to do to get everything set up and to come up with the hook and the angle and all the content that I wanted to put in it and you know, the schedule and the infrastructure and everything else, it was definitely a lot of work. But now I have this kind of, youknow, documentation and all the stuff that I’m doing and like as I’m doing projects with clients, like I’m taking what made those things successful and breaking them down into the newsletter. Because there were so many people who are like, some of my listeners asked me if they’re like, man, I’d love to mentor under you. I’d love to like just, you know, be able to hang around and learn what you’re doing. I’m like, Okay, well, I’ll show you in the newsletter.

And you know, it’s not going to be 150 pages every month, it’ll be, you know, 16 pages, 20 pages, 22 pages, like whatever it is. It’s short, you can read it in, you know, 20 to 25 minutes, get what you need, get an actual strategy that you can actually use in your business. People have been doing that, like I had a guy who he just got the first. He just got the April issue in the mail. And within three days, he took the one strategy that I showed and made 450 bucks with it. And then another guy had gotten it to. He’s overseas. And he’s like, yeah, I tried that one email you include that made 1000 bucks already. And so I can’t wait to use it again. I’m like, Yeah, cool. Keep using the man like it’s working. So that was the whole goal. It was like, how do I? Yeah, like, how do I deliver money in the mail, essentially, to people? Because if I do it for what if I do a strategy or campaign for one client, like, you can adapt these things for your own business? So like, that was the big thing. Not everyone has the money to work with me one on one to talk to my agency. So I said, why don’t I just bring it down the format where people can come and do it themselves?

Brad: Awesome, man. Awesome. Yeah, I’m on your email list, Chris. So I get the, you know, the emails that you send promoting that and they’re always super, super compelling, interesting story driven. So I’d be interested to know Could you share maybe one or two strategies with us here that you talk about maybe in some of your past episodes or past newsletters? I don’t know if that’d be fair to my existing subscribers. 

Brad: Okay, you got to sign up to get that.

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, sign up to get the good stuff. Yep.

Brad: Okay, cool. What other kind of stuff? Are you working on any other cool projects that you got? in the works?

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, I’ve watched an agency where I’m basically gonna be doing large scale projects with ecommerce companies that I work with. And the reason why is, especially now that I have a child and all the other things that I have going on in my life, I just don’t have the same amount of time in order for me to sit down and write out, you know, a bazillion pages of copy for every single project. The thing is, like, ordinarily, I could just take my ball and go home and say, Okay, I’m not gonna work with clients, but I don’t really like that idea. And I still, you know, I’m in the I’m in the mode right now where I just want to continue to build out you know, I want to build another vehicle for myself for the work that I do something that’s long term where I could kind of like, you know, bring on writers and train them and get them up to speed and have them work on cool, exciting projects.

And I can kind of guide, you know, foster their learning and also get clients great results at the same time. So it’s called noisy media. And it’s a very small boutique agency, we don’t work with a ton of clients. And I’m really focused on working with, you know, a small handful of clients doing super high quality work, because you know, with a lot of people I’ve talked to with agencies that say, Oh, it’s a nightmare. And the reason why is because you got to keep growing, keep growing and keep growing, you got another two clients, you got to hire another two people, right? And I kind of want to flip that model on its head, I kind of want to keep it intentionally small work with a handful people can go super deep with their companies kind of like the same way that I do with my current clients, but just have some extra bodies, some extra people to kind of give you more support and get them better results even faster. With email.

So that’s kind of it I’m building out, you know, that is a very, that is a beast of a process. Don’t get me wrong. You know, there’s a lot of SOPs, there’s a lot of infrastructures on project management, there’s a lot of, you know, more marketing on the front end that has to be done. There’s a lot of stuff, but that’s what I’m excited about, you know, building out and, you know, I’ve already started taking on clients, but I just can’t wait to really just perfect that process and make it even better.

Brad: Awesome, and what kind of team structure are you building there?

Chris Orzechowski: Um, it’s gonna be super small. So it’s gonna be me, you know, small handful writers and a small project management team, and, you know, possibly some in tech support, slash implementation people as well. But, you know, we’re talking five people, maybe, maybe less, maybe a little bit more, you know, my goal is not to build the next over the emitter, right? It’s to just kind of keep it small, and just get awesome results.

Brad: Yeah, that’s super cool, man. It’s definitely exciting.

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, pumped about it.

Brad: So for people watching who want to learn more about you, Chris, what you do and what you offer some of your products, courses, things like that. where’s the best place to go to find out more?

Chris Orzechowski: Yeah, if you go to the email copywriter.com you can get a free copy of my book just for signing up to my list and you get all my emails and hopefully become a newsletter subscriber too. But that’s the email copywriter calm. Awesome. 

Brad: And that is a great book as well. So if you don’t have it yet, definitely check it out.

Chris Orzechowski: Thank you, appreciate that.

Brad: Yeah, man. Well, Chris, hey, it was great having you on. enjoy talking with you catching up. And yeah, man, hopefully Talk to you again soon.

Chris Orzechowski: Absolutely, Brad:. Thanks so much for having me. It’s a lot of fun, man.

Brad: Absolutely, man. Take care later.

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